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caroline
06-28-2011, 03:55 PM
I know there was recently a thread about a California couple who did not wish to gender sterotype their children so the chose not to tell people the sex of their child so when I came across this article I found it an intresting take on the same philosophy:
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http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/HrILJMqtYg5MZPDm5KmdhQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9Mzc4Njtjcj0xO2N3PTI4MzI7ZHg9MD tkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcDtoPTI1NTtxPTg1O3c9MTkw/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/486c83ec41193e0ef10e6a70670024a4.jpg (http://beta.news.yahoo.com/photos/monday-june-20-2011-photo-lotta-rajalin-director-photo-140340498.html) In this Monday June 20, 2011 photo, Lotta Rajalin, director at "Egalia", a Swedish …



STOCKHOLM (AP) — At the "Egalia" preschool, staff avoid using words like "him" or "her" and address the 33 kids as "friends" rather than girls and boys.
From the color and placement of toys to the choice of books, every detail has been carefully planned to make sure the children don't fall into gender stereotypes.
"Society expects girls to be girlie, nice and pretty and boys to be manly, rough and outgoing," says Jenny Johnsson, a 31-year-old teacher. "Egalia gives them a fantastic opportunity to be whoever they want to be."
The taxpayer-funded preschool which opened last year in the liberal Sodermalm district of Stockholm for kids aged 1 to 6 is among the most radical examples of Sweden's efforts to engineer equality between the sexes from childhood onward.
Breaking down gender roles is a core mission in the national curriculum for preschools, underpinned by the theory that even in highly egalitarian-minded Sweden, society gives boys an unfair edge.
To even things out, many preschools have hired "gender pedagogues" to help staff identify language and behavior that risk reinforcing stereotypes.
Some parents worry things have gone too far. An obsession with obliterating gender roles, they say, could make the children confused and ill-prepared to face the world outside kindergarten.
"Different gender roles aren't problematic as long as they are equally valued," says Tanja Bergkvist, a 37-year-old blogger and a leading voice against what she calls "gender madness" in Sweden.
Those bent on shattering gender roles "say there's a hierarchy where everything that boys do is given higher value, but I wonder who decides that it has higher value," she says. "Why is there higher value in playing with cars?"
At Egalia — the title connotes "equality" — boys and girls play together with a toy kitchen, waving plastic utensils and pretending to cook. One boy hides inside the toy stove, his head popping out through a hole.
Lego bricks and other building blocks are intentionally placed next to the kitchen, to make sure the children draw no mental barriers between cooking and construction.
Director Lotta Rajalin notes that Egalia places a special emphasis on fostering an environment tolerant of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. From a bookcase she pulls out a story about two male giraffes who are sad to be childless — until they come across an abandoned crocodile egg.
Nearly all the children's books deal with homosexual couples, single parents or adopted children. There are no "Snow White," ''Cinderella" or other classic fairy tales seen as cementing stereotypes.
Rajalin, 52, says the staff also try to help the children discover new ideas when they play.
"A concrete example could be when they're playing 'house' and the role of the mom already is taken and they start to squabble," she says. "Then we suggest two moms or three moms and so on."
Egalia's methods are controversial; some say they amount to mind control. Rajalin says the staff have received threats from racists apparently upset about the preschool's use of black dolls.
But she says that there's a long waiting list for admission to Egalia, and that only one couple has pulled a child out of the school.
Jukka Korpi, 44, says he and his wife chose Egalia "to give our children all the possibilities based on who they are and not on their gender."
Sweden has promoted women's rights for decades, and more recently was a pioneer among European countries in allowing gay and lesbian couples to legalize their partnerships and adopt children.
Gender studies permeate academic life in Sweden. Bergkvist noted on her blog that the state-funded Swedish Science Council had granted $80,000 for a postdoctoral fellowship aimed at analyzing "the trumpet as a symbol of gender."
Jay Belsky, a child psychologist at the University of California, Davis, said he's not aware of any other school like Egalia, and he questioned whether it was the right way to go.
"The kind of things that boys like to do — run around and turn sticks into swords — will soon be disapproved of," he said. "So gender neutrality at its worst is emasculating maleness."
Egalia is unusual even for Sweden. Staff try to shed masculine and feminine references from their speech, including the pronouns him or her — "han" or "hon" in Swedish. Instead, they've have adopted the genderless "hen," a word that doesn't exist in Swedish but is used in some feminist and gay circles.
"We use the word "Hen" for example when a doctor, police, electrician or plumber or such is coming to the kindergarten," Rajalin says. "We don't know if it's a he or a she so we just say 'Hen is coming around 2 p.m.' Then the children can imagine both a man or a woman. This widens their view."
Egalia doesn't deny the biological differences between boys and girls — the dolls the children play with are anatomically correct.
What matters is that children understand that their biological differences "don't mean boys and girls have different interests and abilities," Rajalin says. "This is about democracy. About human equality."
____

Chutney Daftcraft
06-28-2011, 04:10 PM
I think the whole thing is an interesting experiment, and I hope I'm alive when the results of it come to fruition. Preconceived gender roles are incredibly dominant in many areas of society. For example, if you use preconceived gender roles - according to my job - I should be a 24 year old hot girl. Sometimes I wish I was, but that's a thread for a different kind of website... They say that gay relationships have the most equality, because the idea of gender roles are generally absent, so this is interesting because I really do wonder how society would be if men weren't expected to take out the trash while their wife is doing the dinner dishes.

caroline
06-28-2011, 04:23 PM
I tend to think the world would be a better place void of any stereotyping and I like the idea although to be honest I do not have any kids and I do not know how difficult it would be to explain this concept to preschoolers who encounter bias elswhere in society. I personally feel what makes my relationship so strong with my husband ( I am in a hetrosexual marraige) is that we have been equals since the begining and neither of us are concerned with traditional gender roles so there is no strife in our relationship as everything is shared and split equally and no tension which allows us to remain best friends.

Nanuk
06-28-2011, 04:29 PM
You can either raise boys and girls to be men and women respectively, or you can tamper with the social engineering that reinforces the proper roles and raise up a generation of sissies and womyn, neither of which are natural or good for a whole lot. Boys are supposed to grow up to be football players, not cheerleaders. Girls are supposed to grow up to look good in dresses and heels, not flannel shirts and work boots. Those are society's norms and they're norms for a reason.

caroline
06-28-2011, 04:33 PM
I do not see how it makes a difference if more women take jobs in society that are traditionally considered masculine and men take jobs that are traditionally considered femine as long as both categories are filled why does it matter who is doing what? Nanuk I have enjoyed the threads you have posted about your friends daughter who is a crack shot, is she not defying a common gender role in society?

Nanuk
06-28-2011, 04:47 PM
Nanuk I have enjoyed the threads you have posted about your friends daughter who is a crack shot, is she not defying a common gender role in society?

Not at all. Shooting is one of those sports that is totally gender-neutral. Women and men compete on an even footing in every aspect of the shooting sports, and on the practical side, who better to learn to use firearms for self-defense than women? In that instance, the firearm equalizes things and takes away the strength advantage that male attackers typically possess.

Now as to jobs, there really are jobs where strength is a requirement, and truth be told, women typically don't have as much upper-body strength as men do. (Yes, I know that some women can out-lift and out-press some men, but in general, it's not the case.) Those jobs should not be filled by women when men are available, IMHO.

Chutney Daftcraft
06-28-2011, 04:52 PM
Not at all. Shooting is one of those sports that is totally gender-neutral.

If only the world was as awesome as shooting is...

Am I right?

LFE
06-28-2011, 04:52 PM
I just hope schools like this don't wind up making boys pee sitting down...

derricksonb
06-28-2011, 04:59 PM
Tearing down gender roles sounds nice in theory at the preschool level, but what happens when little Helga grows up and comes across a big mean hairy spider or needs the brakes changed on her Volvo?

Nanuk
06-28-2011, 05:03 PM
If only the world was as awesome as shooting is...



But it's not. That's why boys are supposed to grow up to be masculine men and girls are supposed to grow up to be sweet, effeminate women.

Like I said in the other thread, Hemingway would not approve of this (http://www.shannondale.org/forum/showthread.php?23107-Ernest-Hemingway-would-not-approve&p=266913#post266913).

Chutney Daftcraft
06-28-2011, 05:08 PM
Tearing down gender roles sounds nice in theory at the preschool level, but what happens when little Helga grows up and comes across a big mean hairy spider or needs the brakes changed on her Volvo?

First of all, let's be real. Helga will probably stomp on that spider because if you run from it, it's still lurking in 'her' house. And Helga will probably make a vulva-for-volvo exchange anyway, since she's a figment of YOUR imagination... :rotfl:

caroline
06-28-2011, 05:51 PM
Not at all. Shooting is one of those sports that is totally gender-neutral. Women and men compete on an even footing in every aspect of the shooting sports, and on the practical side, who better to learn to use firearms for self-defense than women? In that instance, the firearm equalizes things and takes away the strength advantage that male attackers typically possess.

Now as to jobs, there really are jobs where strength is a requirement, and truth be told, women typically don't have as much upper-body strength as men do. (Yes, I know that some women can out-lift and out-press some men, but in general, it's not the case.) Those jobs should not be filled by women when men are available, IMHO.
I am confused?? The most qualified person should always get the job. This is what not stereotyping does- who ever regardless of their sex is best should have the job and often people look past someone well qualified for a position due to gender stereotyping.

SeanEpperson
06-28-2011, 06:17 PM
I just hope schools like this don't wind up making boys pee sitting down...

Ok what about the flip side, little girls peeing standing up, out on the edge of the playground?

Kensey
06-28-2011, 06:21 PM
Girls are supposed to grow up to look good in dresses and heels, not flannel shirts and work boots.

If a girl is hot, she's still hot in a flannel shirt and a pair of thigh-high waders, or a greasy T-shirt and a pair of cut-off jeans, or a climbing harness and spandex shorts, or...

I'll be over in the corner for a bit.

derricksonb
06-28-2011, 06:35 PM
I am confused?? The most qualified person should always get the job. This is what not stereotyping does- who ever regardless of their sex is best should have the job and often people look past someone well qualified for a position due to gender stereotyping.

I agree. And personally I'd like to see more women in the construction trade using jackhammers....

http://multiply.com/mu/matthuliz/image/7tZIEnd2NJS2iOWvlupjvw/photos/1M/300x300/47/5-SophieMonk-JackHammer.gif?et=Kk32OrEQARimykVhz439ug&nmid=0







BTW- Don't Google "Hot Girl Jackhammer" unless you have an entire afternoon to waste or if you're at work....

derricksonb
06-28-2011, 06:39 PM
If a girl is hot, she's still hot in a flannel shirt and a pair of thigh-high waders, or a greasy T-shirt and a pair of cut-off jeans, or a climbing harness and spandex shorts, or...


You mean like this one from Binford Tools?

http://stigofthedump.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/pamela_anderson-tool-girl1.jpg

Black Dog
06-28-2011, 07:03 PM
My guess is that no matter what artificial environment they create they will find what's been known for some time. That boys and girls are wired differently.

scottwilliams33
06-28-2011, 07:14 PM
Black Dog, you hit it Brother. And I thank God for that.

Chutney Daftcraft
06-28-2011, 08:13 PM
Ok what about the flip side, little girls peeing standing up, out on the edge of the playground?

This is actually for real, not an 'Onion' type thing:

http://www.go-girl.com/

Nanuk
06-28-2011, 08:25 PM
I am confused?? The most qualified person should always get the job. This is what not stereotyping does- who ever regardless of their sex is best should have the job and often people look past someone well qualified for a position due to gender stereotyping.

I'm with you 100%. I'm all for hiring the best qualified, regardless of sex, race, sexual preference, etc.

Problem now is we have laws that say "we don't care what your qualifications are. You don't have any women or minorities working for you so you need to hire some regardless of whether or not they're the best qualified."

THAT sort of thing is the problem today.

caroline
06-29-2011, 08:38 AM
I'm with you 100%. I'm all for hiring the best qualified, regardless of sex, race, sexual preference, etc.

Problem now is we have laws that say "we don't care what your qualifications are. You don't have any women or minorities working for you so you need to hire some regardless of whether or not they're the best qualified."

THAT sort of thing is the problem today.

I completely agree with you and that is a problem but I think that is a seperate issue from encouraging children to determine there own natural inclinations versus having anything force fed to them.

Nanuk
06-29-2011, 09:14 AM
I completely agree with you and that is a problem but I think that is a separate issue from encouraging children to determine there own natural inclinations versus having anything force fed to them.


It seems like the school is the one trying to interfere. If left to their own devices, most little boys will instinctively try to grow up to be cowboys, soldiers, police officers or firefighters. Most girls will grow up trying to be ballerinas, veterinarians, teachers, nurses, or Barbie. Again, that's nature and how it should be.

Chutney Daftcraft
06-29-2011, 09:37 AM
Isn't nature, and how it 'should be' very brutal? Isn't that what we are trying to do, as a society, is overcome 'natural inclinations' and be civilized? The natural reaction, when someone touches your child inappropriately, is to kill them. There are always huge differences between a natural reaction and how one *should* react to something.

I guarantee you, being civilized isn't 'natural'. It's a thing that has been taught and programmed.

Nanuk
06-29-2011, 05:06 PM
Sorry, Chutney. Men are the warriors, hunters, providers, fixers, etc. for the same reason that women are the gatherers, nurturers, child-raisers and homemakers. That's just what makes men men, and women women.

shadowplay
06-29-2011, 06:08 PM
Sorry, Chutney. Men are the warriors, hunters, providers, fixers, etc. for the same reason that women are the gatherers, nurturers, child-raisers and homemakers. That's just what makes men men, and women women.

And then there are women, like my wife, who occasionally volunteers to help me mow at the Springs, is a sturdy co-worker, could beat all the neighborhood boys at basketball growing up, and generally doesn't feel the need to wear makeup. I guess you feel that she is a failure as a woman.

Black Dog
06-29-2011, 06:20 PM
Isn't nature, and how it 'should be' very brutal? Isn't that what we are trying to do, as a society, is overcome 'natural inclinations' and be civilized? The natural reaction, when someone touches your child inappropriately, is to kill them. There are always huge differences between a natural reaction and how one *should* react to something.

I guarantee you, being civilized isn't 'natural'. It's a thing that has been taught and programmed.
I don't believe the idea of becoming civilized is necessarily to overcome *all* base human instinct but rather to foster the growth of the positive traits and subdue the negative.

Nanuk
06-29-2011, 06:23 PM
And then there are women, like my wife, who occasionally volunteers to help me mow at the Springs, is a sturdy co-worker, could beat all the neighborhood boys at basketball growing up, and generally doesn't feel the need to wear makeup. I guess you feel that she is a failure as a woman.


Now where do you read that in what I said? Geez...

shadowplay
06-29-2011, 06:29 PM
Now where do you read that in what I said? Geez...

Just maybe, by what I quoted of yours. Sometimes, I get the impression that much of what you post can be easily misinterpreted, so that may be the problem.

grafxgirl
06-29-2011, 08:19 PM
I don't think ignoring the gender of the children is the right way to go about things. In my preschool class, I have boys who play with dolls and housekeeping and girls who play with the cars. Just let them choose to do what they want and they will find where they are supposed to be.

Cissey
06-29-2011, 08:43 PM
Grafxgirl...I agree.....these kids will figure out where they need to be.....we just need to accept them for whatever they choose. We can only hope they turn out to be productive, loving and caring individuals...whatever their gender, whatever path they choose to take. To be honest, I dont' understand why one chooses to be a gay or a lesbian however I really don't care as long as they are good people. I also feel the same about blacks, hispanics, etc.. There are good and bad in all of us.

KatherineA
06-30-2011, 09:32 AM
People do not "choose" to be gay or lesbian - they are born gay or lesbian.

Nanuk
06-30-2011, 10:10 AM
People do not "choose" to be gay or lesbian - they are born gay or lesbian.

The jury is still way out on that.

derricksonb
06-30-2011, 11:02 AM
People do not "choose" to be gay or lesbian - they are born gay or lesbian.

Much in the same way that these children did not CHOOSE to be little boys or little girls, so why is it considered acceptable to try to make them into something they are not by redefining gender roles, but it's considered offensive to suggest that homosexuals can be reformed into heterosexuals? It would seem to me that the two draw some fairly parallel lines.

Chutney Daftcraft
06-30-2011, 11:30 AM
Why you gotta use the word 'reformed'?

Removing traditionally-installed gender roles and turning gay men into straight men are clearly different concepts, the ONLY thing they share is that all this 'change' is to satisfy others, and not the people being changed. Let me pass on a quote from the movie 'Saved': The places that take money and promise to convert homosexuals into heterosexuals don't exist for the people being sent there, they exist for the people that do the sending.

LFE
06-30-2011, 11:52 AM
"your mind is totally controlled, it has been stuffed into my mold, and you will do as you are told, until the rights to you are sold"
Frank Zappa - I'm the slime (Subtitulado en espaρol) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWA-TXJmeQo)

KatherineA
06-30-2011, 12:13 PM
To me, a school that discourages gender bias is not making them into something, rather it is letting the children become what they want to be. It is the total opposite of "making them into something." The boy who loves trucks will find trucks to play with as will the girl who likes trucks. This school just won't take the truck away from the little girl and tell her that since she is a girl, she needs to play with a babydoll.

caroline
06-30-2011, 05:13 PM
To me, a school that discourages gender bias is not making them into something, rather it is letting the children become what they want to be. It is the total opposite of "making them into something." The boy who loves trucks will find trucks to play with as will the girl who likes trucks. This school just won't take the truck away from the little girl and tell her that since she is a girl, she needs to play with a babydoll.
I agree. That is what it means to me also.

Black Dog
06-30-2011, 06:08 PM
This school just won't take the truck away from the little girl and tell her that since she is a girl, she needs to play with a babydoll.
Do schools really do that? I find it hard to believe that if a little girl decides to play with a truck anyone from a school would feel any need to intervene.

grafxgirl
06-30-2011, 09:48 PM
To me, a school that discourages gender bias is not making them into something, rather it is letting the children become what they want to be. It is the total opposite of "making them into something." The boy who loves trucks will find trucks to play with as will the girl who likes trucks. This school just won't take the truck away from the little girl and tell her that since she is a girl, she needs to play with a babydoll.

The preschool I work at does not force kids to be something they are not. The kids play with whatever it is they choose. We do not dictate what they can and cannot play with, but we don't ignore the fact that we have boys and girls in the class. They know which children are boys and which children are girls. We do however encourage them to treat each other with respect and kindness no matter who they are.

Why is it necessary for a school to ignore the gender of the children when the same thing can be accomplished in a regular classroom setting?

Chutney Daftcraft
06-30-2011, 10:58 PM
Obviously, the next step to this experiment is to just remove genitalia as a requirement for enrollment. The word 'unisex' doesn't *need* to have that pesky 'i' in it, you know...