Abortion (split thread from Ron Paul discussion) [Archive]

PhoenixOrion

08-25-2011, 04:36 PM

Split from this thread (http://www.shannondale.org/forum/showthread.php?23739-Ron-Paul-2012).

Why is it always about abortion? What's that about? I don't get it.

Thanks for the clarification. I am familiar with Roe vs. Wade but I do not think it is his intention to take any action toward abortion rights in office I believe he plans to focus on maters directly addressed in the constitution and axe the FED although you have brought up a scary point that if even though it does not appear to me integral to his platform if he did that I would feel way duped!!!!!

Even if he tried, he'd fail. There's no way RvW will be overturned any time soon, if ever.

caroline

08-25-2011, 05:27 PM

For me it is just a very important issue to have control over ones body and I find it disturbing the govt would want to control a womans body. Now that being said it is not an end all be all that I will only vote for a pro choice canidate there are many other issues important to me. I too would like to think it would be pretty hard to overturn R vs. W but you never know!!!!!!! I just hate how many comprimises I have to make when voting for a canidate! What appeals to me about Ron Paul is the limiting of govt which to me= staying out of my business in things that don't need to be govt regulated. I also like has concepts of dramatic overhaul of our current financial system as it seems to not really be working right now!

PhoenixOrion

08-25-2011, 06:56 PM

For me it is just a very important issue to have control over ones body and I find it disturbing the govt would want to control a womans body.

I was asking more for the opposing side. Seems the right wing voters are all about morality issues anyway but especially abortion. My question is, why is that more important than education or any number of issues effecting children? To me, I'm more worried about what my born children are facing rather than a child that may or may not be conceived.

Further, the Pro-Life crowd specifically has a long history of pushing for Pro-Choice laws to change. Some of them go so far as to push for a limit on insurance covering birth control. Seems counter-productive to me. I mean, if you're against abortion wouldn't you want women to use birth control in an effort to prevent a pregnancy from ever occurring?

Chutney Daftcraft

08-25-2011, 08:43 PM

I mean, if you're against abortion wouldn't you want women to use birth control in an effort to prevent a pregnancy from ever occurring?

It's a perfect storm to raise funds for 'the cause'. Wrestling over the womb is a very lucrative venture. For this reason alone it could never actually be made illegal. Talk about a religious recession...

Starbuck

08-25-2011, 08:50 PM

Kensey

08-25-2011, 10:25 PM

One of my biggest questions for the right-wing has always been why limited government stops at my bedroom door.

We'll make a libertarian out of you yet... :)

Yossarian

08-25-2011, 10:59 PM

I am just a little curious about how the pro-choice folks feel about the death penalty. No judgements to be made, just looking for more information.

Theresa

08-25-2011, 11:26 PM

One of my biggest questions for the right-wing has always been why limited government stops at my bedroom door. How can someone say life begins at conception and then want to cut education and social programs that make sure those same children are cared for and fed and have adequate medical care outside the uterus?

I've always wondered if the 'life begins at conception' crowd would also extend dependent tax exemptions to women as soon as they can prove they are pregnant.

caroline

08-26-2011, 07:51 AM

I am just a little curious about how the pro-choice folks feel about the death penalty. No judgements to be made, just looking for more information.

I am personally pro death penalty. But I do not see any correlation to me being pro-choice.

KatherineA

08-26-2011, 08:57 AM

I'm anti-death,but pro-choice, but anti-pro-choice for me should the situation arise (which it won't anymore, so Iam not sure if that makes me a hypocrite or not). I do see some hyprocrisy by saying life in the womb is not so sacred at least up to three months, but life is sacred as far as the death penalty goes. In any case, I believe every woman should have the right to say yes or no to having a child, even after conception. while it wouldn't be my choice to have an abortion and wasn' when I was "with child" in high school, it is a personal and medical decision that should not be off limits for a woman and her family because of a state or fed. legislators religious beliefs.

PhoenixOrion

08-26-2011, 09:13 AM

Some links to how states are now eroding Roe v. Wade:

http://culturecampaign.blogspot.com/2011/07/eroding-roe-v-wade-state-by-state.html

http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/video/2011/08/18/erosion-wade-matters

One of my biggest questions for the right-wing has always been why limited government stops at my bedroom door. How can someone say life begins at conception and then want to cut education and social programs that make sure those same children are cared for and fed and have adequate medical care outside the uterus? Why does it matter who my neighbor wishes to marry?

Let's get even more technical. If the right wants limited government, why the push for government controlling people's personal lives? That obviously goes well beyond abortion but for whatever reason, that has been the chosen platform for many-a-politician.

As for your links, I'd think at the most the issue of fetal pain would produce some restrictions on late term abortions and/or require doctors to sedate the fetus prior to the procedure.

The second one pisses me off. We've got states mandating that a woman undergo and be shown the results of an ultrasound prior to having an abortion. This suggests that women take the choice lightly, which couldn't be further from the truth! I am so sick of people with that mentality!

PhoenixOrion

08-26-2011, 09:15 AM

I've always wondered if the 'life begins at conception' crowd would also extend dependent tax exemptions to women as soon as they can prove they are pregnant.

I've always heard this argument from the opposite side of the fence; Pro-Life and Pro-Capital Punishment.

I do see some hyprocrisy by saying life in the womb is not so sacred at least up to three months, but life is sacred as far as the death penalty goes.

I suppose if someone is looking at it in terms of the sanctity of human life, that would make sense. I think that applies to both 'sides' too; just on this point it's hypocritical to value one life over the other since both involve human beings. However, when life begins would also apply here.

kemeigen

08-26-2011, 09:23 AM

pro life isn't really about the life being sacred, blah, blah blah. it's more about keeping women down.

KatherineA

08-26-2011, 09:39 AM

It isn't about keeping women down to me -pro life. It is about what I believe is the sanctity of human life. Which is why I am conflicted about being pro - choice but anti -death penalty. I don't think that there is a "logical" answer for having those contrary positions because they do conflict, at least "morally" in my mind.

TheChipmunks

08-26-2011, 09:58 AM

I am personally pro death penalty. But I do not see any correlation to me being pro-choice.

Second that.

pro life isn't really about the life being sacred, blah, blah blah. it's more about keeping women down

And that!

kkrapf

08-26-2011, 10:39 AM

I am pro choice because banning abortion puts women at risk, but I very rarely agree with the choice. I do believe it is murder, but I believe that sometimes murder is justified.

Starbuck

08-26-2011, 02:21 PM

I am just a little curious about how the pro-choice folks feel about the death penalty. No judgements to be made, just looking for more information.

In my heart of hearts, I think every convicted felon, especially those convicted of crimes severe enough to warrant the death penalty, should be given 30 minutes with the victim's family. And whatever happens, happens.

I am against the death penalty as it currently exists in the US, not because I have any gooey "sanctity of life" feelings, but because:
a -- It does not deter crime like it should
b -- Too many innocent people have been given the death penalty. This includes mentally challenged individuals
c -- It is more expensive to send a convict to death row than it is to house that convict for life

Solve these issues, and I might give up my opposition to the death penalty.

Chutney Daftcraft

08-26-2011, 02:57 PM

Out of sight, out of mind. It should be more difficult to end the life of someone who is a living, breathing, knowing, communicating being, to the point they know what their life is and that you are going to end it than it should be to terminate a pregnancy before the life is ever experienced.

How can somebody OK with the death penalty procedure, and the days leading up to it, but not OK with terminating a pregnancy? I don't want to hear a damn word about the woman who goes and gets abortions like I get haircuts. I never want to hear about this bitch again until somebody proves her existence.

AAT53

08-26-2011, 03:21 PM

I don't want to hear a damn word about the woman who goes and gets abortions like I get haircuts. I never want to hear about this bitch again until somebody proves her existence.

I've met that "bitch". A girl I went to high school with named Miaya. By the time we were 20 she had had 7 abortions...yep, 7. She would not use bc pills because she said they made her gain weight, she wouldn't use condoms because she didn't like the feel of them and she said that pulling out wouldn't work. She was from vietnam and told us that it wasn't a big deal there. Her parents knew about each abortion (paid for most of them) and they didn't care.

That being said, she wasn't an actual "bitch". She was very nice and loving, but she had a very different feeling/belief about abortions. Her mother had one in her 7th month (while they were visiting family in vietnam) because they decided they were going to extend their vacation for a month and she decided she didn't want to travel that long while pregnant.

To me it was a very sick way of thinking, but to them it was just the way it is. The family there didn't question it or anything and from what I was told they all understood exactly why she did it. I have to say, her parents were wonderful parents and loved the 3 children they had/kept.

Miaya has had 2 children since we were twenty and has had at least 4 more abortions that I know of. She has been in this country for 30 years and she still looks at abortion as just another form of birth control.

While she may not have had them as often as one would get a haircut, she certainly had them quite a few times.

itsapyr

08-26-2011, 03:53 PM

AAT53

08-26-2011, 04:49 PM

I am pro choice about abortion and also pro death penalty.

As someone who did not have children by choice (and no I like them just fine just never wanted my own) I never ever would attack another woman for wanting children like I have been attacked for not wanting them.

That does work both ways. I have a message board that I have been a member of for about 10 years. There are quite a few on there who like to pull the "breeder" card, say that the vast majority of parents should never have had kids because they don't know how to raise them, etc.

When it comes to any issue involving human beings there are always plenty of people on both sides that bitch and complain about the others.

itsapyr

08-26-2011, 04:56 PM

That does work both ways. I have a message board that I have been a member of for about 10 years. There are quite a few on there who like to pull the "breeder" card, say that the vast majority of parents should never have had kids because they don't know how to raise them, etc.

When it comes to any issue involving human beings there are always plenty of people on both sides that bitch and complain about the others.

I am just talking personally. I am not a zero population growth proponent except for me personally. I had a woman come up to me that didn't even know me and call me a selfish bitch because I didn't have children. WTH?

Chutney Daftcraft

08-26-2011, 05:03 PM

I've met that "bitch". A girl I went to high school with named Miaya. By the time we were 20 she had had 7 abortions...yep, 7. She would not use bc pills because she said they made her gain weight, she wouldn't use condoms because she didn't like the feel of them and she said that pulling out wouldn't work. She was from vietnam and told us that it wasn't a big deal there. Her parents knew about each abortion (paid for most of them) and they didn't care.

That being said, she wasn't an actual "bitch". She was very nice and loving, but she had a very different feeling/belief about abortions. Her mother had one in her 7th month (while they were visiting family in vietnam) because they decided they were going to extend their vacation for a month and she decided she didn't want to travel that long while pregnant.

To me it was a very sick way of thinking, but to them it was just the way it is. The family there didn't question it or anything and from what I was told they all understood exactly why she did it. I have to say, her parents were wonderful parents and loved the 3 children they had/kept.

Miaya has had 2 children since we were twenty and has had at least 4 more abortions that I know of. She has been in this country for 30 years and she still looks at abortion as just another form of birth control.

While she may not have had them as often as one would get a haircut, she certainly had them quite a few times.

Well, that's kinda different. Yeah, I know, that sounds funny to say. She was from a culture where it was no big deal. Her background/beliefs should not affect my sister's body. Interesting that she could afford them, nonetheless. She is also living proof that abortion doesn't really increase the chances of adverse reproduction capabilities. Well, you could say that if a woman from Vietnamese descent was a true representative of all women, I suppose.

PhoenixOrion

08-26-2011, 06:37 PM

I've met that "bitch". A girl I went to high school with named Miaya. By the time we were 20 she had had 7 abortions...yep, 7. She would not use bc pills because she said they made her gain weight, she wouldn't use condoms because she didn't like the feel of them and she said that pulling out wouldn't work. She was from vietnam and told us that it wasn't a big deal there. Her parents knew about each abortion (paid for most of them) and they didn't care.

That being said, she wasn't an actual "bitch". She was very nice and loving, but she had a very different feeling/belief about abortions. Her mother had one in her 7th month (while they were visiting family in vietnam) because they decided they were going to extend their vacation for a month and she decided she didn't want to travel that long while pregnant.

To me it was a very sick way of thinking, but to them it was just the way it is. The family there didn't question it or anything and from what I was told they all understood exactly why she did it. I have to say, her parents were wonderful parents and loved the 3 children they had/kept.

Miaya has had 2 children since we were twenty and has had at least 4 more abortions that I know of. She has been in this country for 30 years and she still looks at abortion as just another form of birth control.

While she may not have had them as often as one would get a haircut, she certainly had them quite a few times.

Personally, I do not see any difference in the woman having one abortion and the woman who has seven, ten or twenty abortions. And since I've already started down the path of technicalities, let me throw this one at'cha. Abortion is birth control. Certainly not in the way most people view it but the reality is that it does prevent (live) birth from occurring, which is exactly what birth control is meant to do. You can't even say "traditional" birth control prevents pregnancy because - again - technically, some do not (in how we view pregnancy itself).

grafxgirl

08-26-2011, 10:09 PM

I am personally pro death penalty. But I do not see any correlation to me being pro-choice.

I am a conservative that is pro-choice and pro-death penalty also.

derricksonb

08-27-2011, 12:54 AM

I am a conservative that is pro-choice and pro-death penalty also.

Same here. I fully believe in a womans right to choose, but once a person has the ability of free choice then he/she should face the full consequences of their actions.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/funny/photos/now-that-I'm-safe-I'm-pro-choice.jpg

http://drschrecksfrequenzen.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/metallica_ride_the_lightning_front.jpg

caroline

08-27-2011, 09:19 AM

db I hope you are not sayn' people who have abortions should face the death penalty!!!!!!!!!

grafxgirl

08-27-2011, 01:46 PM

db I hope you are not sayn' people who have abortions should face the death penalty!!!!!!!!!

No, he's saying that a woman should have the freedom to decide whether or not she wants to bring a new life into this world, but once that new life grows up it has the free choice to go down a good path or a bad path as an adult. If that person decides to go down the bad path then that person should face the consequences for their actions, even if it turns out to be the death penalty.

PhoenixOrion

08-28-2011, 04:12 PM

Same here. I fully believe in a womans right to choose, but once a person has the ability of free choice then he/she should face the full consequences of their actions.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/funny/photos/now-that-I'm-safe-I'm-pro-choice.jpg

http://drschrecksfrequenzen.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/metallica_ride_the_lightning_front.jpg

No, he's saying that a woman should have the freedom to decide whether or not she wants to bring a new life into this world, but once that new life grows up it has the free choice to go down a good path or a bad path as an adult. If that person decides to go down the bad path then that person should face the consequences for their actions, even if it turns out to be the death penalty.

Certainly not the impression I got from the above images, particularly the first one. I'd be interested to hear DB's thoughts from DB too.

derricksonb

08-28-2011, 05:13 PM

grafxgirl

08-28-2011, 05:18 PM

Certainly not the impression I got from the above images, particularly the first one. I'd be interested to hear DB's thoughts from DB too.

I figured I had a pretty good grasp on what he was saying since I've known DB for 22 years and been married to him for 11 of those 22 years.:)

derricksonb

08-28-2011, 06:55 PM

i figured i had a pretty good grasp on what he was saying since i've known db for 22 years and been married to him for 11 of those 22 years.:)

allegedly.........

Casey

08-29-2011, 04:05 AM

Just my 2 cents worth. I am pro death penalty but beleave our judicial system needs some much needed overhauling. As a mother of 4 I know if someone where to hurt one of my children I'd want to push the button or throw the switch myself. I am very pro choice and beleave the opperative word in that is choice. If your choice would be to never have an abortion then I fully respect that choice but in return you must respect my choice to have one. It is a completely private matter and should be made by those involved not a bunch of politicians. If it was a mans body we where talking about I bet we wouldn't be having this discussion.

PhoenixOrion

08-29-2011, 06:50 AM

PO- The T-shirt is an example of an irony. Now that that the child has escaped the possibility of being aborted he/she is pro-choice.

That being said, I believed I summed up my feelings quite nicely BEFORE the posted images. I support a woman's right to choose, but I also support the death penalty.

Sorry, it was a little confusing.

I figured I had a pretty good grasp on what he was saying since I've known DB for 22 years and been married to him for 11 of those 22 years.:)

Noted.

charliepff

08-31-2011, 07:24 PM

I fully believe in a womans right to choose, but once a person has the ability of free choice then he/she should face the full consequences of their actions.

I agree as long as it is not being used as birth control. Everyone should have there own choice as long as not to abuse the resource. Some people have medical issues and so on. The last time I checked we were the USA because an individual could make a choice for themselves. If everyone is telling everyone else they can not have an abortion or anything else it kind of defeats the purpose of being a free country anymore. I do think for people that abuse it there should be consequences. I am very close to someone who had severe medical issues and went through this procedure. They live with there choice everyday. If she lived in a state that she did not have a choice she may not be alive right now. Just my thoughts.

Starbuck

08-31-2011, 10:14 PM

So, help me understand here...abortion should be legal as long as it's not birth control...but individuals should be allowed to choose for themselves? So who defines when abortion is being used "as birth control?" Because if it's anyone but the woman making the choice, you are taking away her ability to choose for herself.

Incidentally, some good news out of Texas today, when the court threw out the mandate to have a sonogram prior to the procedure. This is where the legislation really pisses me off...because obviously, some government official (usually male, but not always) believes I did not think through that decision. Apparently, I just decided while driving to the store, "oh, I think I'll go have an abortion." It is my experience that this typically does not happen...however, even if it did, it's still MY choice as long as it's legal.

charliepff

09-01-2011, 08:30 PM

So, help me understand here...abortion should be legal as long as it's not birth control

Beleive it or not there are people who think 4 or 5 abortions a year because they can not afford birth control or are to lazy to use it is a correct use for this. Not really sure how else I can explain this but I can assure you this happens. While I do agree it should be THAT PERSONS CHOICE. It is a little irresponsible when it is use in that way.

Starbuck

09-01-2011, 10:37 PM

Ah yes, but here's the thing...while you or I may PERSONALLY feel that this is an irresponsible decision, it is still hers to make. And the important thing is making sure that the choice remains legal.

Charlie, are you in favor of scientific sex education in school, or abstinence only? Do you think it would make a difference in the abortion rate? I've seen statistics that make the case, and I've seen statistics that prove the opposite. But I'm interested in your opinion on the subject.

Interesting news I came across today (I'd link the article but I'm too lazy to go look it up just now). While the percentage of doctors willing to perform abortions is very small, the percentage of younger doctors willing to perform the procedure is increasing.

cindylu

09-01-2011, 11:42 PM

I didn't think doctors would perform one abortion after another on the same woman--morally/ethically and health wise not good. And then on opposite side of spectrum there is octo-mom.

Abortion rights (like gun rights) is an emotional hot political topic where people let emotions rule their vote. Pretty soon logic is thrown out the window and emotions rule. One of the reasons politicians like emotional hot topics.

PhoenixOrion

09-02-2011, 12:59 PM

I hesitate to respond to this again but the 'irresponsible' comments are a bit much, especially if one agrees it should be a legal right. I don't understand why it matters so much to people who are not personally involved.

grafxgirl

09-02-2011, 07:43 PM

PhoenixOrion

09-03-2011, 10:44 PM

I agree with everything Charlie said except for the consequences for people who abuse it part. I don't like the fact that some people are going to abuse it by using it as a form of birth control, but it is not my place to tell them they can't.

Seems to me some people might have issues with people using abortion as birth control due to the cost. I know the cost can vary, but it sure can add up over time. Wouldn't one have to factor in follow-up visits with a doctor, pain medicine, and possibly other procedures if something does go wrong during the abortion? What happens if the person having the regular abortions can't afford to pay for it? Who does ultimately end up paying for it? Wouldn't it be cheaper and safer, although not 100 percent safer, to just use some type of birth control?

But then again, I guess another question could be posed. If a person can't afford to have the child, yet they do it anyway who ultimately ends up paying to raise it? Probably the same people who ultimately end up paying for the abortion. So is it cheaper to have the abortion or raise the child?

Oh, man. You are getting into a whole other debate. lol

As far as I am aware, there is one follow up about 6 weeks after the procedure. I'm not sure about complications because abortion is not regulated like other medical procedures and so, a lot goes unreported. I am also unsure of who foots the bill. I don't know if some insurance pays or not but those I've worked with paid/pay out of pocket. I do know that Planned Parenthood offers a type of sliding fee for some of their services but not sure if abortion is one of them. And before anyone jumps, a lot of people bitch about PP being the largest abortion provider but that only makes up about 3% of total services offered by them (last time I checked). The Pro-Lifers trying to defund PP right now probably don't realize what they're doing to women, since all other services far outweigh abortion provided by the org (including free and low-cost birth control). That goes back to my previous post, though.

grafxgirl

09-04-2011, 10:35 AM

Oh, man. You are getting into a whole other debate. lol

Yeah, I know!:D These are just some of the questions I have had going through my head during this thread. I figured I would throw them out there.

spatulagirl

09-05-2011, 07:37 AM

I think anti-choicers know what they are doing when they want to de-fund/get rid of PP.

I wish it didn't HAVE to come down to the abortion issue. I really did. But I have a difficult time throwing my support behind anyone that isnt pro-choice. And I think it is ridiculous that it always seems to be divided between party lines. I am quite sure every Democrat is not pro-choice just like I am sure every Republican is not anti-choice.