MHTF - Are there really 3000 buildable lots in Shannondale?

[OldWolf99]

I noticed a previous thread in General Chat area that had a lot of passion in it. What I did not see and have not been able to validate is the 3,000 figure. Can anyone provide some facts for this? Last I was able to find was that over an estimated 750 lots were denied by the Health Department (I noticed in another link that there is a list, I will try to find some time and go get it to post.) The question is how many lots are actually left to build on in Shannondale? I sincerely doubt it is 3,000. Does anyone have some hard facts here?

[Kensey]

I noticed a previous thread in General Chat area that had a lot of passion in it. What I did not see and have not been able to validate is the 3,000 figure. Can anyone provide some facts for this? Last I was able to find was that over an estimated 750 lots were denied by the Health Department (I noticed in another link that there is a list, I will try to find some time and go get it to post.)

According to Willis, regardless of the size of the lot, if public water and sewer are available it's buildable as far as the Health Department is concerned. I think the 3000-lots sign fit into the context of public water on the mountain.

[Scott T]

I did a quick search of the tax records. There are 3337 properties listed that do not show an improved value (meaning no structures built). This does not take into account that the tax records are indeed accurate (which we know is fraught with problems). This does include lots that are very tiny and would only be buildable if combined with other lots or if water and sewer are brought to the area.

[Chutney Daftcraft]

Oh, I guess we can update that sign to say "OVER 3000 Homes".

:rotfl:

[trollibear]

Actually, I remember Mr. Redman stating at one of the meetings we attended that the count was off and there were more like OVER 4,000 lots.

[Scott T]

I checked on some other areas. Keyes Ferry Acres-642 Lots, Westridge Hills-440 and John Brown Farm-92. The info is only as good as what has been inputed into the online system, which we all know is called GIGO.

[OzGirl]

First things first would be to define what 'buildable' means - if we are talking about water and sewer provided buildable then thats one thing...so the 3000 plus argument hypothesis could stand...

Within current ordinances however - you would have to have a minimum of .5 acres so that number would change drastically or you could summise that most s'dale lots are .25acres and therefore any free lot numbers would have to be reduced by 50%.

With the current assessments that have been issued it seems that the county deems anything larger than .25 or plated as a parcel i.e. 2 lots that are issued a single tax bill - as buildable land and values that land accordingly - whether the property is actually buildable or not....

Current definitions do not allow for greenspace/conservation/or non buildable land based on facts i.e. bad perk tests, stream beds etc.

[Willis]

Definitions, definitions, Phooey: whether it be 2000 or 4000, at what point does the infrastructure(particularly roads-and pointedly avoiding the landslide issue)"collapse" in the sense that gridlock occurs on two lane ( generously defined) roads designed for summer vacation/weekend retreats?

Instead of a number, let's just use the phrase "too many", particularly with the "no holds barred" school of land development used by a seeming majority of the builders plying their trade on our Mountain.

The Assessor's harebrained attitude is another issue all together, a red herring in this discussion.

Added: Thanks Scott, for the look into the records!!

[WVGeo]

Ah, but Willis, think how much more fun it would have been yesterday if we'd added a couple thousand more commuters to Mission Rd.!

[Kensey]

Ah, but Willis, think how much more fun it would have been yesterday if we'd added a couple thousand more commuters to Mission Rd.!

The solution to the water/building issue is tanks. Big ones.

With lots of ammo.

Then if there's a backup on Mission, and emergency vehicles can't get through, why, you just push 'em out of the way!

(The ammo is just there for adding extra spice to Civil War history re-enactments at Harper's Ferry. "And then Union forces bombarded--" KA-BOOM!!)

[WVGeo]

Maybe placing heavy artillery at the entrance to Mission Rd. would add some bite when we say to Snyder "What part of 'No!' don't you understand?"

[Starbuck]

Just out of curiousity, how many of the 3,337 lots are parceled? For example, I own three lots, two of which have no structure. Are these two lots included in the 3,337 that would be "buildable" when/if public water/sewer is brought in?

I'm in complete agreement w/Willis, however. The exact number is irrelevant. The lack of infrastructure is the issue NOW and will be ad infinitum until it is addressed.

[Jenniffer]

Maybe placing heavy artillery at the entrance to Mission Rd. would add some bite when we say to Snyder "What part of 'No!' don't you understand?"

Dan was talking the other day about setting up something at the entrance to Mission and outfitting all of SD's autmobiles with RFID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rfid) :P

[Scott T]

Starbuck-that's a good question. The only way to determine this would be to look at every lot and owner and see if any dwellings are included on any of the adjoining lots. As you can imagine this would be quite an undertaking. I would hope that the County would be able to ascertain this (aaarrggghhh-almost choked myself...sorry). I have 4 lots and one dwelling. There are some in Westridge Hills who have 8-10 lots and one dwelling.

[katybelle]

The lot size/parcel question makes a big difference in how you are counting. Our Property is comprised of 3 separately billed parcels, but one is 4 "lots" one is 2 and one is 1. It was sectioned out this way when we bought it because the previous owner bought different sections at different times. It is all connected. One is most likely listed as improved and the others, not.
Sooo... Is my property 3 lots, 7 lots, or what. There's only one house.
As I'm reading from other posts, many others have property comprised of more than one "lot". It would certainly be hard to come up with a true number.

Katybelle

[OldWolf99]

Scott T - Good info! I think I need to take a trip down to the Health Department and ask some questions.

I agree that infrastructure is the pain and the cure (depending on if you want any more neighbors.). The questions I am looking for answers to are: Scott T states there were 3337. How many lots are combined with built lots and do not apply to the totals? How many lots have been denied by the Health Department? How many lots are just flat un-buildable? How many lots of what remains could be built? Without those answers how do you know just how bad the situation is?

Keys Ferry Acres has a Health Department moratorium (because of the water supply) imposed for the last 20 years and it is a moot point. If the water situation was resolved then we can answer the question. I do know (including myself) many of us have multiple lots. I have 3 for 3.97 acres. My neighbor on one side has one for 1.3 acres. My neighbor on the other side has 2 for 2.6 acres. Across from me they have 2 for about 1 acre with lots connecting to those in the subdivision behind KFA. Just about every land owner on Cedar Hill Drive owns over 1 acre.

Blue Ridge Acres from what I understand only has around 100 buildable lots left.

The end piece is, how can you know how bad something is if you cannot quantify it?

[Scott T]

I went back and double checked the numbers. Apparently I made a small error....there are 3271 unimproved lots in Shannondale. Not sure what I did wrong the first time. I am using the tax function in my real estate MLS software as the County's online system does not allow for a search by subdivision. Maybe a glitch between the MLS and the County or just me being a bonehead.
I also checked the number of total number of lots...that number is 4651
I looked at a few of the tax listings and yes many of these lots are combined to make a building lot. So that leaves 1380 lots.

[John]

So that leaves 1380 lots.

Scott T,

I appreciate the solid information!
Are these numbers in addition to the those you had for Keyes Ferry, West Ridge Hills, and John Browns Farm? Can you get estimates for Lake Forest I and II, Beacon Hill, Rock Ferry, Mission Ridge, Shannonwood, and Campsites?

[Scott T]

These are for just Shannondale. I'll see what I can dig up on the other places.

[Scott T]

Here is what I have found. The first number is the total lots in the tax records, the second number are the lots that show as unimproved.
Westridge Hills 588…..440
Keyes Ferry Acres 872…..642
John Browns Farm 209…..92
Blue Ridge Acres 816…..496

Beacon Hill currently shows 20 lots

I am not finding data on the others. My guess is either the names of the subdivisions are not listed in the tax record or the data has not been updated to MLS

[STR1KER]

I have some "perk" info for you's guys....

How to make a "perk" test, "legit" on "non-build-able" lots.
This came from a developer a couple of years ago that was having a heck of a time getting a house built on land that was already purchased, designs drawn, etc...

1) Dig the hole for the test 2x as deep as it should be.
2) Fill the bottom of the hole w/ gravel up to the correct depth.
3) Cover the gravel w/ dirt.
4) Add water, come back in a few hours to check drainage.
5) Whoolaaahhh... Perk test passes.

How's that for shoddy???

Bottom line, any lot is buildable when you have the "right" person and "enough money" to make it happen. :rolleyes:

[Willis]

Geez o Peez
I'm confused, D'Oh
Unimproved vs Improved
May I pose a hypothetical?, Yes? Ok:
Someone owns 6 lots-#'s 1-6 in a linear(in a line) configuration and included on the same deed. The house, septic and well is situate on lot 3. I suppose for the purpose of discussion let's say each lot is a quarter acre.
Are you including lots 1&2 and 4,5&6 improved or unimproved? the BIG question would be: should central water be provided, would the owner be able to split out those separately platted lots and situate a dwelling on each?
Are you including such situations in the stats, Scott?

[Scott T]

I haven't included any situations. Just the data I could find in the tax records to try to get some idea of what is currently up here. Without looking at each and every owner/lot configuration it's hard to say what is really going on as far has who has what and what they might be able to do with it. If someone has massive printing capabilities I'll be glad to come over and pull up the data. John???? Wading through it all will be a big chore.
Someone now could have combined lots with 3 acres and one house. I assume they could build a couple more houses if they wanted to.
I would also assume if central water and sewer are available then just about anything could be built.

[Scott T]

I am assuming that the lots without the house on it are considered unimproved lots by the tax folks. I really don't know for sure though. When I looked at a couple of the tax records I saw where there were a number of lots next to each other with the same owner. One lot showed an improved value and the others show as unimproved. I am not sure how each has been deeded. In my case I own 4 lots. 3 of the lots are deeded to my house and the other I bought later. The deeding could vary widely depending on each situation

[Scott T]

As I look at more and more of this I am finding a wide variance in how each lot/owner configuration is set up. Some folks have many lots combined to make one building lot and they are all deeded together and taxed as one. Others have one lot with a home. Still others have multiple lots next to each other, but one lot is taxed as improved and the others are taxed as unimproved lots suggesting they may have been purchased from different owners and at different times. it's a mess and it is giving me a headache.

[Willis]

Just for you Scott
http://www.shannondale.org/sca/images/EyeCatchingGraphics/people/man_clamp_headache_lg_clr.gif

You've done a great job, Scott and I'm not trying to be difficult. In the real world, you're right, each lot would have to be addressed individually. I'm sure there are properties on the mountain platted on sheer cliffsides, and some crisscrossed by umpteen stream beds. Perhaps what we should call "Frank Lloyd Wright" lots. When the lots were laid out on a tabletop, all of them were flat as pancakes, no slope, no rock, no water or streams, no gullies or ravines, no ad infinitum.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make parallels your statement

I would also assume if central water and sewer are available then just about anything could be built.A precise number can't be assigned. We know it's well in excess of 2000(at least that's what I garner from your preliminary stats) and over twice the number is not out of the question, depending....
Depending on what? Sadly or should I say frighteningly, the only way to determine the exact number would be to apply for a permit to build on each lot and start construction. Whatever rules/regulations/ restrictions extant at that time would be the determining factor:eek:.

[Girlyjeep]

We own lots in 3 different names, try to figure that out. ;)

[Scott T]

Thanks Willis...I know you are just asking the tough questions that need to be asked. Trying to get a grip on these numbers is insane. The variables are staggering

[Scott T]

Shenanwood
59 total lots....30 unimproved

[OldWolf99]

Hey all - The Health Department has agreed to provide a list of all denied lots in the county. They said it was easier that way. I also asked for a list of approved lots as well. We shall see what we get.

[OldWolf99]

Okay the government shuffle has commenced. The MHTF member who volunteered for this mission has been punted to every county agency you can think of. It would seem no one seems to know anything for certain. ARGH!!!!! So, We have enlisted some assistance from some different resources with access to the MRLS. We are also going to the local developers to see if they will tell us how many approved lots they have. We are not sure if they will help but, all they can say is "no" and we are no worse for wear. Next update next week.

[DerVollender]

Ok,

So I will give you an Idea, I know several builders in the area including myself, But I have really no plans of building on the mountain, and this is something we have talked about year ago, It takes about an acre of land in Shannondale to build a three bedroom home. Any larger of a house will of course take more land. So you can figure up how many acres are left on the mountain, and then figure at least and I mean at least are not buildable. Should give you a idea, of the homes that could be built here. The only true way is to perk every lot on the mountain. To get the true number.

[John]

Ok,

The only true way is to perk every lot on the mountain. To get the true number.

Unless you bring in public sewer and water -- at tremendous cost to every existing resident and probably every tax payer in the county - and for the sole benefit of the few people who own all of those lots.

The profit all goes to the private entities while the costs are shifted to the public.

[OldWolf99]

John,
From what I hear the Commissioners have already engaged in such a plan with Dunn Engineering and have been at it for 2 years. My question now is what kind of game are they playing? I for one am getting ready to get exceptionally ticked off.