Gypsy Moth Fund Raising:Eat at Cali.Tortilla Wed Nite 25% to the Fund!!

[campbell]

Here's a yummy way to contribute toward the gypsy moth fund! Visit our local California Tortillla betweem 5 pm and 9 pm on Wednesday, February 20, 2008. When placing your order, use the catch phrase "Shannondale Gypsy Moths" then order as usual and pay the regular price. California Tortilla will set aside 25% of the total of those receipts for the committee. The restaurant is located at: The Marketplace at Potomac Towne Center, 34-2 West Virginia Way, Ranson, WV 25438. Hope to see you there!

[waltzmiester]

just so everyone patronizing this knows what they are supporting:

http://pmep.cce.cornell.edu/profiles/extoxnet/dienochlor-glyphosate/diflubenzuron-ext.html

Walt

[KatherineA]

Dear Walt,

I consider myself a pretty antipesticide organic type person. From my research, the treatment spray that the Gypsy Moth Committee uses is the safest that can be used and that is still effective against this terrible pest. One reason the spray date cannot be announced well in advance, is because the committee does not spray if winds, moisture levels etc are not optimum for covering only the area that is designated for spraying (i.e., not the river). Thus, unless conditions are not optimum, there is no spraying.

Moreover, this spray is specific (as it can be for gypsy moths) and chronic toxicity is relatively nil.

CHRONIC TOXICITY
No measurable pathological changes were observed at very low, long term exposure to diflurobenzuron (3).
In a study with cats fed over a wide range of doses for 21 days, all of the females had dose-related blood chemistry changes at low doses and the males exhibited changes at dose levels that were slightly higher (3). The chemistry changes were associated with the formation of methemoglobin. This is a form of hemoglobin that is unable to carry oxygen. Methemoglobin formation is reversible however.

I suggest you duck and cover.

[JiveTurkey]

The chemistry changes were associated with the formation of methemoglobin. This is a form of hemoglobin that is unable to carry oxygen. Methemoglobin formation is reversible however.


can also occur from eating too many hot dogs or other processed meats.

[waltzmiester]

Katherine

Suggest I duck and cover? Are you preparing me to be flamed? I never said anything about spraying or effects I merely posted the fact sheet for public notice.

Walt

[KatherineA]

It was a reference to the 50's when some of us hid our heads in school hallways against imaginary threats. Showing my age. Fortunately or unfortunately you didn't get the joke.

Chill Walt. ;)

[waltzmiester]

ok cool because i am merely an informer, I provided no opinion on the matter

[shadowplay]

Thankfully Dimilin has been developed to help combat the gypsy moth. In efforts during the first half of last century arsenic-based pesticides and DDT were used. They were effective at controlling the gypsy moth but did indeed have biological complications.

It is vital that an environmentally safe means of dealing with this pest exists. What Dimilin does is simply interfere with the caterpiller's production of chitin, so that it is unable to grow an exoskeleton. It has little to no effect on anything but pre-molt arthropods.

http://home.comcast.net/~wvdanewcreek/dimilin_factsheet.pdf (http://home.comcast.net/%7Ewvdanewcreek/dimilin_factsheet.pdf)

[waltzmiester]

Shadow

For your reference, a 1 1/2 page wvda dimilin for dummies document is not an adequate source for an argument. I am sure that the West Virginia government and their incredible history of staunch environmental stewardship would lead you to accept such a document verbatim. But I have simply provided a factsheet. Since I have replied this many times and as I have put in this much effort to bring you these facts, I will now bring you the truth.

By supporting this effort, you are truly "buying" into the idea that spraying gypsy moth larvae is the best possible way to deal with the pest. And while this prophylactic type of spraying has been a traditional means of dealing with pests since the advent of the sprayer, it has been proven to be the worst possible and speaking long term, the least effective. You see, when you spray something like Dimilin all over trees and shrubs, and parts everywhere in between targeting Gypsy Moths, you inadvertently affect other beneficial organisms.

Dimilin is what is know in the entomology (study of insects) world as an Insect Growth Regulator (IGR). These certain types of pesticides are what etymologists refer to as broad sprectrum. That means that they not only hurt gypsy moths, but all sorts of other arthropods (arthropods are the largest phylum of animals, that include insects, arachnids, and crustaceans). That means that they hurt other lepidopteran (butterflies and moths) in the process. So when you buy into the idea that this gypsy moth spray is great, try to keep in mind what other organisms you are affecting.

The IGR works by preventing and organism from going through an instar (basically moulting) so it can never change into its adult form. That makes sense from the standpoint that you don't want these gypsy moths turning into adults, or does it? I guess if you don't want them to mate for the next season it might. But gypsy moth damage is done when the moth is still a caterpillar. Its the chewing mandibles of the larvae that are the culprits for all the damage to foliage you see. So does spraying in that fashion even make sense as far as tree damage is concerned?

And everyone who posted thought I cared just about human health! Well, while I do care about us humans and our little piece of heaven here on the mountain, the truth is, I also care deeply about seeing butterflies and moths grace budding green undergrowth between tall firm oaks.

Perhaps the worst percentage of your purchase in buying into what the other "nozzle nuts" are selling is that you are running on what is known as the pesticide treadmill. This is some clever nomenclature for an easy concept to follow. I will explain it by starting with Bt.

Bt was the other type of spray mentioned in controlling the gypsy moth. You see, Bt (Bacillus thuringiensis) was quite the rage when it first hit the market. It was a bacterium found in the soil, and also the midgut of lepidopteran. By simply spraying spores on areas lepidopteran would ingest, you could completely wipe out the entire lepidopteran population. Soon Bt was everywhere, even in crops (tobacco, corn).

Well wouldn't you know areas that use Bt crops and Bt spray now contain populations that are 100% immune to it's effects. Uh Oh! What now? Lets call on Dimilin to step up and be another temporary and truly (now you know why) environmentally hazardous patch until it too (and yes you can bet on it) becomes obsolete due to species immunity.

Welcome to the pesticide treadmill. A series of temporary fixes that are detrimental to our environment. And by buying into this spray theory you are keeping this treadmill going. So now that you are abreast of the beneficials that are killed and the multitude of temporary fixes that are perpetuated we can move on.

It seems to me that there is a definite lack of funding for these type of projects all over the US. Partly because of what was quoted already (no USFS 50% budget or NPS money for spraying this year) but also because I am a scientist in the Department of the Interior. I know the budget scene for projects like these, some pretty slim pickens out there. So let me ask you this. If the NPS and USFS are not spraying this year on this mountain, what makes you think they are spraying on any other adjacent mountain?

If they are not, which is highly likely, any meager defense put up by pot luck dinners will surely be a waste of money. You will not be an island of foliage among a sea of moths.

One of the only reasons that this is such a big issue is because of the projected "dry year" some forecaster predict. Thats right, during wetter seasons nature has its own gypsy moth defense. It is a fungus called Entomophaga maimaga. You can read up on it if you would like, just type it into google. Here is how you present an argument Shadow:


We have only to look at gypsy moth defoliation figures for the northeastern and mid-Atlantic states to see the effect of the fungus. Between 1995 and 1996, many states experienced a decrease in defoliation: Delaware, 99% decrease; Maryland, 88%; Michigan, 96%; Pennsylvania, 94%; Virginia, 100%; and West Virginia, 31%. In many of West Virginia's leading-edge counties, the fungus is catching up to the gypsy moth. More than 66,000 acres were sprayed for gypsy moth in West Virginia in 1996, but egg mass surveys show that little more than 10,000 acres will qualify for treatment in 1997 (Jan D. Hacker, WVDA, personal communication).
Well that is but a brief intro into the your "purchase" at California Tortilla on Wednesday night. Just know that good decisions are based on sound judgment, and sound judgment isn't something that is inborn. It is based on being able to accurately weigh all of the factors in an argument. I Hope that when you have read this you will have amassed at least a few more of those factors.

I understand also that simply complaining about the process does no good. It is but a sparkling package filled with fresh Wyoming air. So if you are interested in true solutions to pest problems feel free to include questions.

Walt

[KatherineA]

So Walt, what is your suggestion? We try to squish several million gypsy moth caterpillars under our feet this summer? We band every oak tree on the mountain? You plan on volunteering to pick off egg masses on the mountain?

Dimlin is our best shot at keeping our trees. Maybe you should go back and review the gypsy moth damage photos from last year.

[waltzmiester]

I am aware of the damage, as I live here...

But also because I have done Integrated Pest Management research with lepidopteran and worked on a sustainable farm. My intention in the essay was to make sure people know what they are spending their money on. To give the other side of the story as it were.

Aside from that there are many opportunities to escape the grip of the pesticide treadmill. The most obvious is the lepidopteran killing maimaiga fungus which is still spreading to WV, people without etymology knowledge know little or nothing about this. Other options are allelochemicals, which disrupt mating signals, and can be used as bait in traps. Bracconid wasps, which are parasites of lepidopteran larvae. And guess what? There are species of wasps that not only specifically target certain moths, but they can be trained by humans to go to the trees and find them.

Your anger is palpable in the last post. I can understand it, as you, probably like most people in the dale like our foliage. But we cannot be lazy in our quest for viable solutions, as we will just be chasing the status quo. Well that may work for you and you can spend your money chasing the status, or you can turn this into an opportunity. You can change your thinking and truly green your lifestyle. The choice is yours, although it is obvious to this observer that you have already made your choice.

Your "organic" ideals that you mentioned sounded good in theory, it sounded like you have some solid environmental ideals that you live by. I admire that and am glad to have your opposing viewpoint. But ideals mean nothing to me and they have even less use for this earth. It is time for all of us to put those ideals into actions. That is what the earth really needs, especially our community.

"The whole of science is nothing more than a refinement of everyday thinking."

Walt

[KatherineA]

I still do not see that you have presented a viable solution to the gypsy moth other than dimlin, unless of course you have wasps that are trained and ready to capture the gypsy moths - that is after the caterpillars have eaten their way through Shannondale and beyond and the moths have hatched.

[shadowplay]

The only alternative that I see you have introduced that has any viability in a realistic sense is the fungus that you mention. Unfortunately I believe the presence of the killing fungus is dependant upon the occurence of a very wet spring season, which we have not had in several years and have no control as to when it will occur in the future. The successive dry springs that we have had are likely an contributing factor to the sorry state of the high gypsy moth population that we are currently enduring.

Dimilin has been used with great success in this immediate area (among many other areas) for over twenty years now with little environmental change at all. I have lived exposed to it for that period, and welcome the continued use of it. If you are truly concerned for either personal safety, or for some philosophical reason, about the use of Dimilin (or pesticide use in general) and you do indeed live within the area surveyed to be sprayed you can have your property excluded from spraying.

[campbell]

It is appropriate that this community continue to follow the guidelines and programs through the WVDA. They have the expertise on gyspy moths and gypsy moth suppression and are in the best position to advise us on what are TRULY effective and safe treatments and what are not. Dimilin has undergone rigourous safety tests because it is applied from aircraft onto populated areas. Dimilin is highly specific to insects that go through a molting process. Years of research has proven that it does not effect humans, mammals, birds, bees or other beneficial insects. It is considered an excellent product for use in Integrated Pest Management programs. Tree mortality is significantly reduced by using Dimilin to suppress gypsy moth caterpillars and as a result there are many beneficial effects on the environment. Reducing tree mortality maintains water quality thus protecting organisms dependent on water, prevents increased predation of nesting songbirds, protects other leaf eating and canopy dependent insects, preserves acorn production and food supplies for the birds rodents and mammals dependent on them, reduces forest fire risks, and allows the natural cycles of the forest ecosystem to continue to thrive.
Disruption of the the moth mating cycle is effective in slow the spread areas but not in areas such as ours that are infested. The fungus, entomophaga maimaiga is a viable means of suppression but not a reliable one. It depends on rain at specific times which is unpredictable. In fact, the fungus was present yet did not prevent the deposit of large healthy egg masses in 2007. Three dry springs in a row have prevented the fungus from having any effect whatsoever on suppressing the caterpillar. In fact, numbers of defoliated acres in West Virginia have steadily increased from 2,641 in 2005 to 17,272 in 2006 to 78,923 in 2007.
As the flyer that was sent out recently states in bold print and underlined- " Any landowner with questions or concerns about aerial spraying or who does not want their property sprayed can contact the WVDA at 304-788-1066."

[waltzmiester]

I realize I have stirred the pot for a few folks here but believe me when I say I am compelled to speak for those who cannot speak. And those creatures are the tiger swallowtails, the monarchs, and the american ladies.

I had written a dynamic response to all of your remarks but I erased it and will move on. My spirit is torrid from this discussion and I will not look upon this thread again.



“One way to open your eyes is to ask yourself, 'What if I had never seen this before? What if I knew I would never see it again?'”
-Rachel Carson

[Willis]

...I am compelled to speak for those who cannot speak. And those creatures are the tiger swallowtails, the monarchs, and the american ladies. I had written a dynamic response to all of your remarks but I erased it and will move on. My spirit is torrid from this discussion and I will not look upon this thread again....


Don't let different pov's dissuade you from keeping the conversation going, guy. Forums are like that. People agree to disagree. I can see both sides and I think most others do, too. Your assessment of our State and Federal Gov't's as stewards of the environment is less than stellar(he says in an example of gross understatement). We find ourselves in deep doo doo for just that reason.

If research and funds had been available for finding and developing an ideal approach, we wouldn't be in danger of either losing our trees or our beneficial bugs and insects. And we wouldn't be putting lives at risk by creating an environment for wildfire and weakening of the soil structure to even a greater extent with the die off of the forest's trees.

If you were serious about tuning out a discussion concerning the critters who can't defend themselves, I'm disappointed.:( Sometimes you've got to fight alligators for a while, until the swamp drains-and it won't do that of its own accord. Swamp draining needs all the input we can muster.

[skennison]

Man, I'm so sorry I came late to this thread. I'm sure we've lost Walt's input now and, in my opinion, just when we most need it. Is there any reason we can't start from where we are and work toward what Walt's recommending? He's clearly an expert in this area...who more could we want on our team?

My understanding has been that other than our beloved fungus (which I'm sure we'd all prefer over spraying) there simply is no other way to battle the gypsy moths. If there are other ways, my vote is that we learn more and work toward shifting away from spraying over time. Perhaps the fungus will then have time to expand here.

After all, I love the butterflies, too.

[Marty]

it's good to have debate on this important topic. i have longstanding concerns about pesticide use, which is one reason i buy organic when possible. there's tradeoffs. pesticides have enabled many people on the globe to eat, but they've caused a lot of harm as well. right now, i believe potential defoliation of the mountain is the greater evil, and i will contribute to the spraying effort. like others, i wish there were a viable alternative solution.

[campbell]

I don't believe there is anyone who would prefer pesticides over biological controls, including the WVDA. Research has been done all over the world on biological controls of the gypsy moth caterpillars and if any of them would work in heavily infested areas such as ours, the WVDA would use them. Biological controls have been tried and have simply not been effective in heavily infested areas. As far as I can tell there are three alternatives described by Waltz and I will address each one.
On the fungus - yes that is definitely a viable means of suppression but it must take specific rain amounts at exact times and temperatures to work and is highly unpredictable. If you wait for the fungus to kick in, you stand a very good chance of loosing your trees.
On the disruption of mating cycle through phermone traps - this does NOT work in infested areas. It only works in very low level populations where there may be a few moths but does not work where there are caterpillars and egg masses present.
On the parasitic wasp- the wasps only get to the outside layer of the egg mass and 99% of the eggs are not affected.
If there are alternatives other than these we would be happy to explore them.

[lar]

Come back Walt, this site is all about debate.

[campbell]

One more important point I forgot to make. The fungus was the means of suppression of the caterpillars in Shannodale in 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 and no spraying took place those years. When WVDA informs that the fungus is present in sufficient amounts to supress the gypsy moth caterpillar that means is used as an alternative to spraying. The problem is that the fungus has not been around in sufficient amounts for several years due to three years of dry springs, thus making spraying the only viable alternative for now if we want to keep our trees.