Federal Grand Jury Indicts Sheriff Bobby Shirley

[Ricky]

I too think that Shirley and others beat the tits off of this guy. It makes me view ALL local law enforcement differently (because 'maybe that was one of them). However, the evidence that the jury of S&B has been presented is something that would be hard to decide a conviction with. My personal opinion aside, the dash cams alone aren't enough to convict someone. There is not a clear line of sight to what was happening. We all (or mostly) know what was going on, but none of us can actually see it as if it were happening directly in front of us. And that... is reasonable doubt. It's shitty. It's not right. But it's there. Like it or not. Without more evidence to support what little bit we have in front of us, it's going to be difficult to grab a conviction from it.

[LazerFlash]

There is not a clear line of sight to what was happening.

Funny thing about that... If you look at the videos, you can see that there are other LE vehicles that not only have a clearer line of sight to the incident in question, but are also close enough to actually see what's going on. Here's a thought: Maybe the reason we haven't seen the videos from those other vehicles is because the PA has opted to not to release it, having sealed it as "work product".

I do have to ask, though, why is it that with technology the way it is today - I've seen satellite shots where you can read the license numbers on the top of delivery vehicles - but we still don't have an accurate record of what our LE is doing on a high priority call like this one.

[catsmom]

Because states or counties don't have the multiple-million dollars lying around to task or launch a satellite to keep tabs on all their law enforcement personnel and then there is the quality if the picture as someone who works with satellite photos on a daily basis, it is a crap shoot for quality shots. sensor burn, camera malfunction, clouds, orbital difficulties,etc. I sure any of us could come up with far more productive uses for the money if it existed.

[LazerFlash]

Because states or counties don't have...

Yeah, money is always used as an excuse. You know what? I don't buy it! (No pun intended.) For less than a hundred bucks, I can get an HD deer cam that produces stills and videos from a distance of 50 feet with detail sufficient to count the ticks on Bambi's back. Yet, the video that could decide whether our County Sheriff goes to jail or not, is worse than cell phone video taken 5 years ago.

[KatherineA]

I too think that Shirley and others beat the tits off of this guy. It makes me view ALL local law enforcement differently (because 'maybe that was one of them). However, the evidence that the jury of S&B has been presented is something that would be hard to decide a conviction with. My personal opinion aside, the dash cams alone aren't enough to convict someone. There is not a clear line of sight to what was happening. We all (or mostly) know what was going on, but none of us can actually see it as if it were happening directly in front of us. And that... is reasonable doubt. It's shitty. It's not right. But it's there. Like it or not. Without more evidence to support what little bit we have in front of us, it's going to be difficult to grab a conviction from it.

"people" need to keep in mind that this video is not the only piece of evidence that will be presented at a trial (if it goes to that he does not enter some plea). So to say that you cannot convict based on this video is simply not what you would be asked to do at a criminal trial. There is very very rarely ONE piece of evidence that says a person is guilty or not. Rather, you are asked to consider all the evidence presented to you, such as the testimony of the officers who were there, medical personnel who treated the suspect on the day/evening he was brought in, radio transmissions, other videos that may not be publicly available etc. etc.

Seriously people, read some basic trial evidence, due process books or articles. (along with the Constitution) I can almost guarantee hat it would be most enlightening.

[catsmom]

If you are talking about Satellite imagery you are talking millions or dollars if you are talking about video imagery that is a different horse entirely. With satellite imagery you have the cost of the satellite, the cost of the launch, the hardware ex. sensors, cameras, computers for tasking and on board ones as well, bandwidth to retrieve images, computers to translate, and ground stations to receive images. Video from earth bound sources is a whole different horse. Yes it is cheaper but in your question you said satellite shots where you can read license plates, that takes million of dollars.

[Tony]

There's little question that in our kid's lifetimes the states will have their own surveillance drones. Plenty of them. Some people will fight it at first, but others will just accuse them of having something to hide (we need to 'protect the children'!).

I doubt states will ever be able to afford satellites in orbit, because for the same price they could get 1000 cheap drones.

[LazerFlash]

If you are talking about Satellite imagery you are talking millions or dollars if you are talking about video imagery that is a different horse entirely.

Really? You don't say. I guess the confusion here is in my picking an oranges to lemons analogy. My point was simply that with the way technology is today, I'm amazed at the continued poor quality of video presented as evidence in our courts of law. With dashcams having become de rigeur evidence when an officer is involved, you'd think that the technology wouldn't be so far behind the curve. That's all.

[Ricky]

Again, as I said... based on the evidence that the jury of S&B has been given... so on and such...

[trollibear]

Right at the minutes 1:38 it clearly shows the suspect in handcuffs, on the ground and Shirley stomping on his head. How can you miss this? Regardless of what "really" went on behind the vehicle out of sight what he is shown doing AFTER the dude is handcuffed on the ground is just totally WRONG and UNCALLED FOR!!

[LazerFlash]

Since this thread has reached the point of arguing over the difference between satellite and video imagery and how it relates to the piss-poor quality of the dashcams installed in the vehicles operated by the Jefferson County Sheriff's Office, I think I'm done here.

Until the case goes to trial, or there's a plea announced or something else substantial from those actually involved in this case that is.

[Mountain_Nomad]

Is there other video out there?

I didn’t see a lot to cause much of a concern because it’s unknown what the suspect is doing during this time. Footage from DashCam1 seems to be vague at best.

Dash Cam1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUI_ortsKs4

Dash Cam2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfQZUUagods

DashCam2 showed more, but the situation is still unclear.

comments on DashCam2
18:11 (Officers beating suspect)
– Officer(s) appear to beat the suspect. I’m not sure what the officers side of the story is but to me it looks like the suspect is refusing to let go of the truck or ?

18:32 (Shirley kicks at suspect)
- Shirley jumps up on the truck and seems to be trying to get the suspect to release his hold on the truck or??

19:14 (Shirley walks on suspects head or neck)
- Shirley walks on his head. I agree this was uncalled and is an act of a frustrated officer, but seems to be an internal disciplinary issue at best. My guess is that the suspect is still not cooperating (showing he has nothing in hands or mouth?) so they need to determine that before putting in a squad car.

19:24 (Officer punches suspect)
– Again, I’m not sure what officers allege the suspect was doing , but if the officers were not punching him out of revenge, my guess would be that he’s not listening to commands and could have been clenching his fist as if he were holding something (mace, razor blade, needle, ??, etc.,) for mouth.

=================================

I am not a police officer and in no way condone brutal force, but this video is nowhere close to the Rodney King beating. I thought a lot of the police action in that one was 100% wrong, but this one still has many unanswered questions.

I.E., if an ex-con was enterprising, he may try to create a case for a lawsuit, big award, etc., and this is a good way to do it; High Speed Chase, hope cops are super pissed, resist as much as possible in custody, etc., etc., Well, it seems plausible. It doesn't seem like he was trying to re-enter society an start over. Bank Robbing wasn't working for him, so a lawsuit doesn't seem much of a stretch with limited career options.

I'm sure the suspect wants people to believe the police were beating/abusing him because they are ignorant knuckle-heads who enjoy that type of thing? And he was simply the victim who was fully cooperating?

I have a hard time believing the police are so unintelligent they forgot videos cams were still running.....Which is why I think there is more to the story and the suspect may have been resisting as much as he could to make good video.

Until more on the officers side of the story is heard, nothing will be clear.

I'm not sure if other's on this board react this way (drive 100+ mph, stop in middle of cornfield, etc.,) when pulled over by the police, but I guess concern is warranted if this is how some folk feel is an acceptable way to react.,

[Tony]

Right at the minutes 1:38 it clearly shows the suspect in handcuffs, on the ground and Shirley stomping on his head. How can you miss this?

Oh wow I didn't see that before. I just linked it and assumed it was one of the previous videos that didn't really show anything.

[Ricky]

I missed that also. Now THAT is a clear line of sight. Youch.

[Kensey]

Can you see what Haines is doing? No, just because he is handcuff doesn't mean he didn't have a concealed knife he got a hold of and was either going to use it on himself or others who came near. The simple fact is we can't see so therefore do not know and can speculate all we want but SPECULATION (guessing)is not now or ever has been grounds for conviction. It requires FACT. Facts for both sides of the story which are not present.

I heard Shirley describe this very arrest many months before the lawsuit or the indictment. He described it as a high-speed chase ending with an uncooperative suspect that he had to overpower by main force (and from his description then, I had the impression that he took the guy down one-on-one). Nothing about a gun, a knife, or anything extraordinary.

[KatherineA]

http://www.journal-news.net/page/con....html?nav=5222

Shirley's trial date set for January 22, 2013

Link to the Journal article above - that is about all it says. However, as usual the comments are a reminder of where we live.

[tamram]

In fact, he has robbed many banks. This one was one of a few tristate robberies that happened at the time.