Transparent Government; 2008- 2012 (RIP) (Fast & Furious)

[Mountain_Nomad]

It’ll be interesting when all the documents related to “Fast and Furious” are made available. I’d really like to know why Obama feels it’s so important to protect Holder and keep information suppressed.



Right leaning Fox seems to be the only one giving the story much attention, but if they didn’t who would? I think it’s worthy news.

Attention that was focused on the extramarital affairs of Herman Cain and John Edwards seems to have received much more media attention than Obama covering for Holder.

The anniversary of the Watergate scandal was 40 years ago last month. Would the Media have left Nixon alone if he’d protected his people as Obama has for Holder?



White House asserts executive privilege over Fast and Furious documents
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57456848-503544/white-house-asserts-executive-privilege-over-fast-and-furious-documents/

Obama's transparency record: lots of data, not as much sunlight
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...ency-sunlight/

Eric Holder held in contempt over Fast and Furious documents
http://www.wjla.com/articles/2012/06...set-77382.html

Fox News Poll: 61 percent agree with Holder contempt vote over Fast & Furious
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/07/19/fox-news-poll-61-percent-agree-with-holder-contempt-vote-over-fast-furious/#ixzz217uCKIjc

Eric Holder's Contempt of Congress Charge Political?
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...92888720120621

Watergate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal

[chipgallo]

You may need to pull back and look at the big picture. Since I became involved in information technology (IT) with the federal government in 1987, there has never been more public access to what is going on with agency budgets than now. It isn't a result of any one administration but rather a long-term concerted effort, mandated by Congress and enforced by each administration.

See http://www.itdashboard.gov/

[Mountain_Nomad]

You may need to pull back and look at the big picture. Since I became involved in information technology (IT) with the federal government in 1987, there has never been more public access to what is going on with agency budgets than now. It isn't a result of any one administration but rather a long-term concerted effort, mandated by Congress and enforced by each administration.

See http://www.itdashboard.gov/

I agree. There is much more information available today than ever before. I like having the ability to be able to search public records on my own time. In years past, I’m sure I’d have to take a day off from work to go to government offices if I wanted access to some information.

It’s that back-office deals where most want to see more transparency.

With the Reagan Admin, it was the Iran-Contra affair.

With 'W' Bush it was Iraq/WMD, Halliburton, etc.,

And after telling his supporters he'd have a transparent admin, Obama is doing the opposite.

I would like have (or have had?) more transparency on the following;

- Solyndra? The Media seems to be ignoring much of issues around this story. I.E., Why doesn’t the administration answer why they broke DOE rules/guidelines to insure Democrat campaign contributors were paid before US taxpayers received anything?

- “Fast and Furious”? Why did Obama invoke Executive privilege so Holder wouldn’t have to answer any questions? Is the US funding a revolution to over-throw the Mexican Government?

- Stimulus Money sent over-seas? I wish Obama would pulicly address this (if true). It seems to be ignored for the most part. Obama doesn’t control everything that goes on in Government but could be more transparent about things and not find a way to blame Bush.


Obama Team Backed $535 Million Solyndra Aid as Auditor Warned on Finances
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...-finances.html

A primer on the "Fast and Furious" scandal
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...rious-scandal/

Obama Stimulus Program Sent Jobs Abroad, GOP Says
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...071135146.html

[chipgallo]

National Defense, anti-terrorism, DoD and so-called Black Ops are all ways to keep a lid on some of what you are talking about. At one time they had classified the satellite program so deep that the *name* was classified. Stimulus spending doesn't fit any of these labels unless it was part of a CIA or State Dept program to stabilize a foreign gov, that is.

[Mountain_Nomad]

I can understand why some information involving national security should only be accessible by those with top level security clearances, but I think it's ridiculous Obama is making "Fast and Furious" look like a National Security op.

Where's the transparency?

It's starting to make Bush's Iraq/WMD look like some minor infraction.

National Defense, anti-terrorism, DoD and so-called Black Ops are all ways to keep a lid on some of what you are talking about. At one time they had classified the satellite program so deep that the *name* was classified.

It was kinda funny that most just became aware in 1995 that the agency (National Reconnaissance Office) even existed because it had been around since 1960.

National Reconnaissance Office
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationa...issance_Office

[Kensey]

Before you get too upset over F&F, this makes for very interesting reading:

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

Turns out that rather than being an official ATF policy decision, most of the F&F missteps were the result of an unauthorized op by a rogue group of agents.

[Tony]

... the F&F missteps were the result of an unauthorized op by a rogue group of agents.

That's been pretty obvious to even the most casual observers for quite a while now. But let's not let that dissuade some Republicans from trying to set Obama on fire even if there isn't any smoke to start with.

The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

So really, if you want to blame anyone for "letting guns walk", look to the NRA.

[Mountain_Nomad]

I’m not angry, but would like more information. These are government agencies who are involved and there is no evidence or claim that this was an issue of National Security.

If there is no real story behind “Fast and Furious” why was executive privilege used? If F&F was the result of Rouge Agents or the NRA, why not be transparent and release info?

Why is Obama giving Holder executive Privilege?

The CNN article has a lot of info on “Fast and Furious” but doesn’t explain why it’s acceptable for Holder to with-hold information. It seems to imply the request is all politically motivated. Like citizens should “pay no attention to the man behind the curtain”. There were 17 Democrats in House of Representatives who voted to pass the resolution (255-67) that Holder is in contempt.

I think people would respect Obama more if he were to be transparent and allow information to be released. It’s not only about an agent dying. It’s about accountability. What else is out there that’s not be disclosed?

Is Katherine Eban of Fortune Magazine lying about Fast & Furious?
http://www.examiner.com/article/is-katherine-eban-of-fortune-magazine-lying-about-fast-furious

Bipartisan Vote Holding Attorney General in Contempt over Refusal to Produce Fast and Furious Documents
http://oversight.house.gov/release/issa-statement-on-bipartisan-vote-holding-attorney-general-in-contempt-over-refusal-to-produce-fast-and-furious-documents/

Obama Executive Privilege Fight With House Recalls Watergate
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-0...watergate.html

[Tony]

Presidents in both parties have been invoking executive privilege for ages. They do it because they don't want all their private memos exposed. In this case, Eric Holder has already released a ton of information - about 8000 documents at last count. If these congress people were to read one document a minute it would take them 133 hours (6 days!). Longer if they can't read for 24 hours a day. They don't want to do that, especially when they already know how easy it is to buy and sell guns along the border. They just want to try to hang something on this administration.

[BigTom]

So really, if you want to blame anyone for "letting guns walk", look to the NRA.[/QUOTE]

The NRA didn't sell guns to criminals knowing they were going to Mexican drug cartels for the express purpose of tracking where those guns ended up and then lose track of them. The NRA didn't encourage gun dealers the make the gun sales to people the dealers would have denied. The NRA isn't withholding the documents needed to see what and who went wrong to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. Why just limit the blame to the NRA let's also blame those who wrote the Bill of Rights, if it wasn't for the Second Amendment this would have never happened. We've got to blame Bush he's behind all of the Obama regime's problems anyway, right. Hell let's blame the companies that made the guns and ammunition,too. Blame assault weapons and high capacity magazines and "saturday night specials", and "cop killer bullets" and gun shows and society in general. Don't forget to blame the Chinese. If they didn't invent gunpowder this would have never happened. Let's put the blame on everyone and everything else except the one one agency that implemented and managed the Fast And Furious program.

[Mountain_Nomad]

Presidents in both parties have been invoking executive privilege for ages. They do it because they don't want all their private memos exposed.

Obama's private memo's exposed? Are you saying he was more involved and knew more about Fast and Furious than he's stated?

In this case, Eric Holder has already released a ton of information - about 8000 documents at last count.

Reportedly, there's about 140,000 documents total. But it's not about the quantity of documents, it's about the content.

If these congress people were to read one document a minute it would take them 133 hours (6 days!). Longer if they can't read for 24 hours a day. They don't want to do that, especially when they already know how easy it is to buy and sell guns along the border. They just want to try to hang something on this administration.

Come on now, you know there are congressional aides that would assist.

[Tony]

The NRA didn't sell guns to criminals...

Nobody sold guns to criminals. But I bet that's what a lot of the Republican constituency believes right now!

[derricksonb]

Nobody sold guns to criminals. But I bet that's what a lot of the Republican constituency believes right now!

Obama sold guns to criminals under Fast and Furious. I'd be curious to see if the serial numbers on any of Holmes weapons match up to those that the government was supposed to be tracking under that particular program.....

[BigTom]

Nobody sold guns to criminals. But I bet that's what a lot of the Republican constituency believes right now!

Maybe nobody sold guns to convicted felons, we don't really know that for sure without the documents, but if these guns were purchased legally then sold to people who weren't able to legally to buy the guns themselves or were sold to people who smuggled them out of the country they did sell guns to criminals. You're confusing the definition of convict (someone convicted of a crime) and criminal (someone who commits a crime). But it's an understandable mistake since in your mind Democrats and Liberals can do no wrong and Republicans and Conservatives are always at fault.
Just keep telling yourself it's the NRA, it's Bush, it's the Chinese, it's everybody else's fault except the Justice Department but, until all the documents have been reviewed there will always be some doubt even in your mind.

[Tony]

I suppose we should separate the thread if you guys really want to debate the difference between legal and illegal gun sales. Yes, it's illegal to buy a gun with the intent to pass it along, but the ATF has very limited resources and you can't realistically prosecute for what someone is thinking about doing.

The one improper sale during F&F was by agent Dodson, who is now singing to congress and trying his best to blame everyone but himself in a clear CYA move. And so far Rep. Issa is falling for it, with the NRA's very strong encouragement.

[Mountain_Nomad]

I think when the information on Fast and Furious is released it could become one of the biggest scandals of all time.

Watergate involved Republican Operatives breaking in to DNC headquarters seeking information and then a cover-up by the RNC. I agree, it was a scandalous but when compared to Fast and Furious?

It doesn't seem so when comparing the two.

Deaths tied to the Mexican Drug war seem to have increased significantly as Fast and Furious was being implemented.



Most are only familiar with the death of one US Customs Agent (Terry), but Fast and Furious has been tied to many more deaths/shootings.

I.E., south of the border, 300 Mexicans have been killed or wounded by guns linked to F&F. Also, Mexican authorities were kept in the dark about the F&F Operation even as weapons tied to the deaths of Mexican authorities were linked to F&F.


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ious/?page=all

"Fast and Furious" gun case doomed by reckless strategy: report
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2...st-and-furious

Watergate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal

[Chutney Daftcraft]

On the other hand, Romney had all the records destroyed from when he was a Governor. To the extent that he set precedent, by buying all the hard drives in all the computers his administration worked. Anyone in the IT world knows exactly why he purchased and removed all those hard drives.

So there is no alternative to this, one is as bad - if not worse - than the other.

[Tony]

The only way you could possibly compare f&f with watergate would be if you actually believe some of that nonsense these sensationalist reporters are writing. Watergate had figures in the president's own cabinet involved in cover ups and all blaming each other; the other was an accounting plan in a far flung ATF outpost with only one rogue agent now trying to blame his superiors.

F&F simply recorded serial numbers of guns sold perfectly legally and cross referenced them with crimes reported in Mexico. Stop believing everything you read.

Does it bother you at all that since f&f ended the guns are still flowing into Mexico? And they did before f&f started? Or does the story without Dodson's wild accusations just not interest you?

[Mountain_Nomad]

F&F simply recorded serial numbers of guns sold perfectly legally and cross referenced them with crimes reported in Mexico. Stop believing everything you read.

If it's that simple, why was Executive Privilege needed?

I don't believe everything I need, but when action is taken to prevent information from being released, I have to question why? This doesn't seem very transparent.

Does it bother you at all that since f&f ended the guns are still flowing into Mexico? And they did before f&f started? Or does the story without Dodson's wild accusations just not interest you?

It bothers me that information is not being released and Obama campaigned on having a transparent administration.

All the wild accusations could be disproved if information was released. Right? Why wouldn't Obama want to do that?

So if Obama revoked Executive Privilege, released documents and explained that guns were flowing across the border prior to 2008 and still, wouldn't that make this a non issue?

Well, unless there's a lot to hide....

[cindylu]

Not everyone in the Fed Govt is cleared to see/be aware of everything that goes on.